Original message
Date: Thu, 30 Jan 86 20:42:32 PST
From: crow.pa
Subject: The users view of Viewers
To: CedarUsers^.pa
Reply-to: crow.pa
I'd like your comments on what you like/dislike about using the viewers package as a human. For the moment, please hold your comments on using the viewers package as a programmer. The kinds of things I'd like to see are along the lines of the following:
Likes:
- things don't get covered up as they would with overlapping windows
- I don't have to specify where and at what size to open a new viewer
Dislikes:
- I can't easily specify where and at what size to open a new viewer
- The text I want to read is often off in the corner of the screen where the resolution is poorest.
- No smooth scrolling.
- Things get locked up too easily
- I only get one column on the color display
Fire away!
demers.pa
Date: Thu, 30 Jan 86 23:58:02 PST
From: demers.pa
Subject: Re: The users view of Viewers
In-reply-to: "Your message of Thu, 30 Jan 86 20:42:32 PST"
To: crow
I'm going to disagree with both of your example "Likes". Overall I much prefer the XDE window management stuff: overlapping windows, and a Smalltalk-like mechanism by which you size and position a window when you create it. In XDE I frequently "push" a context -- a few windows containing related stuff -- play with it awhile, and then pop it. While I'm working in the pushed context, the windows of my old context are hidden, but I'm not using them so I don't care. (I know you're going to tell me about desktops here, but ...) In Cedar I can't do this. If I bring up a few new windows, I have to close some old ones, or else all my windows get too small to be usable. So, I close some old windows. When I close a window, the system decides where to put the icon, and every time it puts it in a different place, so I can't just get to a known viewer icon by its position - I have to read the icon labels. Maybe this means I need to use Destroy and Get and OpenR more, rather than trying to keep around a lot of iconic viewers ...
Al
Nickell.pasa
Date: Fri, 31 Jan 86 07:30:43 PST
From: Nickell.pasa
Subject: Viewers
To: Frank <Crow.pa>
Cc: Nickell
Frank:
My biggest gripe about Viewers, I think is the non-overlappingness of the viewers, which means that changing the size of any viewer in a column affects the others. Probably the major implication of this is that the icons remain at the bottom of my screen, and I have little control over their placement. In a more desklike arrangement, I can keep things organized spatially — ColorEdit stuff in the upper left-hand corner, mail in the upper right, etc. (Caveat: My druthers are not based on familiarity with other systems: Cedar is by far the environment with which I am most familiar.)
I'd be interested in a synopsis of the comments you receive.
Eric
Levine.PA
Date: 31 Jan 86 07:43:14 PST (Friday)
From: Levine.PA
Subject: Re: The users view of Viewers
In-reply-to: Your message of Thu, 30 Jan 86 20:42:32 PST
To: crow
I really like the viewers package in Cedar (as compaired to xde or interlisp). I especially like the fact that I don't have to specify where and at what size to open a new viewer and that the viewers do not overlap. One added feature I would like would be a Hardcopy button on the viewer to send the text in the viewer to the typesetter/printer. /Joel Levine
Barth.pa
Date: Fri, 31 Jan 86 09:26:46 PST
From: Barth.pa
Subject: Re: The users view of Viewers
In-reply-to: "Your message of Thu, 30 Jan 86 20:42:32 PST"
To: crow
Cc: Barth
* I don't like the random positions things end up in after a long series of opening and closing of viewers. I prefer the paradigm of a tool belt which has a single place for everything and everything is returned to its place. I am constantly hunting through my icons searching for the file or tool that I want. Spatial position is much more important to me than cute icons.
* I dislike the amount of screen real estate devoted to the cute icons, especially for document viewers. I'd really rather have the documents in a single alphabetically sorted list in a third narrow viewer column on the right hand side of the screen.
* It should be possible to tile a screen with viewers of arbitrary height and width.
* I like not having overlapping windows. I've used Tajo enough to know that I hate overlapping windows.
* The color display should not be any different than the black and white display, i.e. I should be able to tile it with viewers as well.
* Why are viewers painted twice when opened???
* Things get locked up too easily.
* I should be able to point to an arbitrary position in a column and put the selected viewer there.
* Moving a Tioga viewer from one column to another should not cause the position to change to the beginning of the file.
* While I was typing this the input focus disappeared off the bottom of the viewer and I typed 3 or 4 characters without any scrolling action. I finally gave up and manually scrolled the viewer. ????
sturgis.pa
Date: Fri, 31 Jan 86 10:40:37 PST
From: sturgis.pa
Subject: Re: The users view of Viewers
In-reply-to: "Your message of Thu, 30 Jan 86 20:42:32 PST"
To: crow
Cc: sturgis
Ok, here goes.
likes: few specific ones, overall a lot.
I agree with "I don't have to specify where and at what size to open a new viewer"
the ability to copy text from one place to another
Dislikes:
TOO slow on a DLion
Icons for the same viewer move around as I open and close viewers, I can never find the one I want.
I HATE icons, I would prefer a sequence of text names, with common prefixes of consecuitive names excised, with the ability to hand organize the arrangement if I want to.
Too much space occupied with headers that I only use once in a while. I think I would far prefer pop-up menus.
"Things get locked up too easily"
"saving" a viewer loses the selection.
Beretta.pa
Date: Fri, 31 Jan 86 11:05:43 PST
From: Beretta.pa
Subject: Re: The users view of Viewers
In-reply-to: "Your message of Thu, 30 Jan 86 20:42:32 PST"
To: crow
Likes:
- No smooth scrolling.
Dislikes:
- When there are too many buttons on a line (e.g. Walnut sender viewer when using WalnutVoice), they are no longer accessible. This is particularly annoying when such a viewer is on the right (narrow) side of the screen (if you put it there you want to save screen real estate; it is a contradiction to be forced to adjust the width of the column to bug a button and to shrink it again thereafter).
- Certain applications have a lot of buttons (e.g. in my Walnut sender viewer there are a total of 42 buttons). May be a better structuring mechanism would be useful (the hierarchy mechanism used for "Places" and "Levels" seems not to be used by applications).
- When a line of icons on the bottom of the screen overflows, the height of the viewers is not adjusted automatically to show all icons.
- When a typescript viewer is split, the two halves are not treated symmetrically, i.e. input in one viewer produces a different behaviour than input in the other viewer.
- When a portion of text visible in different (split) viewers is selected, the selection feedback is provided only in the viewer where the selection has been made.
- Tabulators do not tabulate in any serious way. In the real world, tabulators are used to skip to fixed columns (e.g. like on typewriters). There should be both right and left adjusting tabulators.
Marshall.wbst
Date: Fri, 31 Jan 86 14:20 EST
From: Marshall.wbst
Subject: Re: The users view of Viewers
In-reply-to: "crow.pa's message of Thu, 30 Jan 86 20:42:32 PST"
To: crow.pa
cc: Marshall
Likes:
Automatic sizing and placement of windows is convenient.
Not preempting the user is a first-rank concept.
Dislikes:
Cannot push a set of windows aside to do a short high-priority task and then restore the window system to where it was before rapidly. Overlapping windows can do this by just laying new windows on top of the old and then deleting them.
If I bug ahead in the scrolling band I may get several scroll up commands stacked up. When I see what I want I can't stop the stored up scroll commands.
No continuous (or smooth) scrolling.
I am bothered when I open up a new window in a column that the other window(s) seem to scroll the interesting part of the text off of the screen requiring me to scroll them back. If I select something in window A, open window B, close window B, the selection in window A has generally disappeared.
If I have chat windows or command windows open it is a pain to have to set the insertion point at the end of the text. I would like stream-like windows to automatically set their insertion points to the end or at least have a way of selecting a window for input without changing the last insertion point.
I would like a way to manipulate closed window icons.
I would like to be able to set the number of columns on the screen.
I would like to be able to have a window vertically above another window with a different width.
There seems to be a problem when the caret is on the bottom line of a window: it is sometimes hard to see and sometimes disappears altogether.
I would like the "hot spot" of the cursor to be further down so I can bug the upper middle of a character without getting the next line up.
I would like splitting a window to be easier and not create separate windows (more like bravo).
--Sidney
lamming.pa
Date: 31 Jan 86 12:22:56 PST
From: lamming.pa
Subject: Re: The users view of Viewers
In-reply-to: "Your message of Thu, 30 Jan 86 20:42:32 PST"
To: crow
cc:
Same "likes" as Frank plus
I like having to select a viewer before talking to it. That's better than chatting to whoever is under the cursor.
Dislikes:
When the screen gets full all I can see are menus. Prefer to have all fixed menus in a pop-up. Get rid of the buttons at the top of the screen. If possible get rid of header banners too.
I have never really understood scroll bar graphics
"Adjust" is unpredictable! I want to be able to specify a set of detentes (?) on a viewer so I can click them bigger or smaller by preset amounts. Also I don't see anything wrong in having partially full columns.
I want to have the option of smaller icons. I get fed up losing icons under the bottom of viewers.
Want both tiling and overlapping management schemes available. Pop-up type in form-viewers a la Mac would be nice.
Want option to be able to interact with icons in the same way I do with viewers - i.e. pop-up menus/typins and all the rest.
Pier.pa
Date: 31 Jan 86 15:47:51 PST
From: Pier.pa
Subject: Re: The users view of Viewers
In-reply-to: "Your message of Thu, 30 Jan 86 20:42:32 PST"
To: crow
cc:
Likes:
- things don't get covered up as they would with overlapping windows
- I don't have to specify where and at what size to open a new viewer
- multiple desktops
- fairly fast scrolling; smooth scrolling is nice but I don't yearn for it, but we have to fix Tioga so it will partially display a graphics node.
- integrated multiple displays (color/LF).
- fast for text and most graphics
- editable typescripts
Dislikes:
- Things get locked up too easily
- Things get locked up too easily
- Things get locked up too easily
- locking is too conservative, even when working properly
- no manual override when things lock up
- fixed size icons; would like both smaller and larger icons
- can't easily insert a viewer between any two adjacent viewers
- menus/captions clip rather than wrap when columns are narrow
- debugger always opens source on left column, causing unnecessary lockups
- Viewers/Tioga should implement horizontal scrolling for Tioga viewers
- need an viewer button equivalent to "ungrow and close"
Plass.pa
Date: 31 Jan 86 16:39:47 PST
From: Plass.pa
Subject: Re: The users view of Viewers
In-reply-to: "Your message of Thu, 30 Jan 86 20:42:32 PST"
To: crow
cc: Plass
Likes:
Tiling windows, mostly automatic sizing.
Mostly fast enough.
Dislikes:
Icons hard to find (random order, labels small and hard to read).
Extra repaints.
Non-general nesting. I should be able to run an entire "window package" (maybe a completely different one) within one window. I should also be able to put windows inside of documents.
Column structure too static.
Bored with the way the screen looks.
Things get locked up too easily.
JLarson.pa
Date: 2 Feb 86 14:21:05 PST (Sunday)
From: JLarson.pa
Subject: Re: The users view of Viewers
In-reply-to: Your message of Thu, 30 Jan 86 20:42:32 PST
To: crow
cc: JLarson
Viewers (esp. split typescripts) do get locked up too easily.
Viewer boundary too restrictive. For example, would like to have a full screen width tool in upper part of screen, but have a boundary applied to the lower part of screen.
Viewer bug: Adjusting boundary all the way to edge (for Full screen width tool) causes loss of ability to reset boundary with user interface. (Need to use ← ViewerOps.MoveBoundary[600, 68] in CommandTool to recover.)
I will probably think of others ..
John
Date: 10 Feb 86 15:06:47 PST (Monday)
From: JLarson.pa
Subject: Re: The users view of Viewers
To: crow
cc: JLarson
FYI, the viewer bug I mentioned (loss of viewer boundary control) happens when tools are adjusted to full-screen ** towards the left only **.
John
serlet.pa
Date: Sun, 2 Feb 86 16:05:43 PST
From: serlet.pa
Subject: Re: The users view of Viewers
In-reply-to: "Your message of Thu, 30 Jan 86 20:42:32 PST"
To: crow
Reply-to: Bertrand <Serlet.pa>
Cc: serlet
Likes:
- non-overlapping windows
Dislikes:
- The buttons
<--
--> Color are confusing. They should depend on the column (and the side of the color screen) and, considering the color screen like a third column, an alternative could be more like:
-> and --> for the left column, <- and -> for the middle, and <-- and <- for the right column.
- The top message window.
1) It's hard to read (centering the text could be an answer).
2) Things disappear too quickly (they could be left until the next message)
- Things get locked up too easily (YES YES!)
More tioga related:
- I like the "circular" scrolling of Lisp Machine's windows, and it would be interesting to experiment with that.
- The standard tip-table forces its users to leave the keyboard and take the mouse for local edition or when there is a command requiring a scratchpad. This is unfortunate.
Bertrand
PeterKessler.pa
Date: Mon, 3 Feb 86 10:21:41 PST
From: PeterKessler.pa
Subject: Re: The users view of Viewers
In-reply-to: "Your message of Thu, 30 Jan 86 20:42:32 PST"
To: crow
Cc: PeterKessler
I like the speed with which viewer come up. I've seen dandetigers, and Suns (2's and 3's), and Viewer on Dorados are faster. (No smooth scrolling if it's going to cost me in speed!)
I can't scroll the bottom of the viewer to a point on the scroll bar (I've had this discussion with Rick Beach, and can point you to our electronic discussions of why I want this). Cf. scrolling the top of the viewer to a point on the scroll bar, or a point on the scroll bar to the top of the viewer.
Too much jumps around when a new viewer opens. I lose context. Maybe if the selection is about to be covered up it should normalize itself to the top of its viewer?
Only two columns (maybe, not enough screen real estate). Maybe something like desktops for columns would allow me to cluster viewers and get more effective use of the screen. This deserves a bigger discussion.
It would be nice to be able to get the name of the viewer easily. A solution would be to have a button under the herald that inserted the name/backing file of the viewer at the current selection (but that's a particular implementation).
How about having an edit tool for each viewer? Maybe more than one edit tool per viewer. (Think big!) That way if I had to make several changes to different viewers I could have a set of ``state'' for each one.
How about a way to suppress the menu for a viewer, say with a(nother) button under the herald. This is a small gripe about the amount of space I lose to buttons that I may not need. (Yes I know about Places and Levels in Tioga. That's the idea.)
Keeping the backing file up to date, so crashes wouldn't lose the contents of viewer. It doesn't have to be completely up to date, or fast to go from the state of the backing file to the correct state of the viewer. Probably I've wandered off into Tioga.
There isn't an OpenRight button. To open a viewer in the right column when the left one is wedged. Not wedging the left column wouldn't completely replace this functionality.
Why isn't everything a biscroller? What would that mean for viewing text (on the looooong lines we type around here?)? Why aren't menus scrollable, or biscrollable?
I'll think of more.
... peter
Jacobi.pa
Date: Mon, 3 Feb 86 17:23:19 PST
From: Jacobi.pa
Subject: Re: The users view of Viewers
In-reply-to: "Your message of Thu, 30 Jan 86 20:42:32 PST"
To: crow
Cc: Jacobi
Likes
The screen area is made prety well use of; good partitioning
Dislikes
Limit for number of displays is too low
No pop up menus: To many buttons use to many screen area
Mouse button consistency: I cant remember for infrequent commands which button to use (For very frequent commands, or if very consistent, having different mouse buttons is ok)
Christian
monier.pa
Date: 4 Feb 86 09:37:05 PST
From: monier.pa
Subject: Re: The users view of Viewers
In-reply-to: "Your message of Thu, 30 Jan 86 20:42:32 PST"
To: crow
Likes:
- Non-overlapping windows: they are perfect, don't change them to follow the fashion.
Hates, I mean, really:
- Things get locked up too easily
- Viewer is locked up during save
Dislikes:
- Selection is lost after save (I know, use Reselect)
Wants:
- Click an icon while holding key <foobar> and have it open on column <1, 2, 3>
- By default, the bottom should adjust in order to show all icons. Maybe a profile option.
- See the cursor on the color display.
Unsure:
- Smooth scrolling?
hagmann.pa
Date: Wed, 5 Feb 86 07:49:00 PST
From: hagmann.pa
Subject: Re: The users view of Viewers
In-reply-to: "Your message of Thu, 30 Jan 86 20:42:32 PST"
To: crow
Cc: hagmann
I'd like the freedom to choose between the overlapping and tiled modes. I do like the tiled for reading software, but I am hampered by screen space. I'd like a second black and white display.
I dislike the lockups, and lock errors (re-middle click a message after deleting it while Walnut is pushing Cypress around). The long names on icons are truncated (a command tool's name might be "CommandTool: WD = ///Users/Hagmann.pa/SafeStorage/", but it is labeled "CommandTool: WD = ///" when iconic).
I really hate having to build extra tools to assist Tioga. The EditTool and StyleTool are examples. There is too much mouse movement and clicking in the interface, and thus it is quite easy to make an error. I think the lack of pop up menus is responsible for this.
Of course what I really hate is how the programmer has to try to use Viewers. Not only is the model Viewers is trying to provide unclear ("go read some code and figure out how it works"), but Viewers is so intergral with the rest of the system that if you make a mistake, you can freeze your world.
-- Bob
Kupfer.pa
Date: Sun, 9 Feb 86 10:41:04 PST
From: Kupfer.pa
Subject: Re: The users view of Viewers
To: crow
Cc: Kupfer
In-reply-to: your message of 30 Jan 86 20:42:30 PST (Thursday)
Assuming you're still taking responses...
Likes
-----
I don't have to specify where and at what size to open a new viewer. This is a BIG win.
Efficient use of screen real estate is easy because viewers change their sizes in response to creation/deletion of other viewers.
Editable typescripts (especially being able to edit the last line of a CommandTool typescript before hitting CR).
Pending delete mode (I don't know if this counts as part of Viewers, but I sure wish XDE had it).
Dislikes
-----
I sometimes want to look at two files side-by-side, and it's a bit of a nuisance having to move viewers around to set things up and then clean up afterwards (e.g., put WatchTool back).
bier.pa
Date: Tue, 11 Feb 86 10:57:28 PST
From: bier.pa
Subject: Re: Results from: The users view of Viewers
In-reply-to: "Your message of Mon, 10 Feb 86 13:40:30 PST"
To: crow
Cc: bier
Before all the embers cool: My comments:
Most of the grief that a user suffers from our current viewers package is grief that he doesn't know he is suffering. One possible exception is the window resizing anomalies which John Beatty complains about (e.g. when there are many viewers in a column).
The user doesn't know that the reason that buttons are grouped so strangely (e.g. why aren't all the buttons that relate to X in the same place) because the programmer has faced constraints along the lines of: TextViewers can't be in Menus. Menu buttons can't be bold. TextViewers can't be in TiogaButtons. TextViewers can't be in Pop Up Menus. Pop Up Menus can't stay open while the viewer refreshes. Etc. Etc. We need some uniformity.
We had a scheme once upon a time that middle-clicking any button would print out documentation for that button. Some such functionality ought to be provided.
Interfaces have very little in the way of graphical buttons. It would be nice for a Gargoyle user to choose a slope from a picture of sloping lines. With no package for drawing and hit testing such things, however, the programmer isn't willing to provide them.
OK, OK, so I'm mainly a programmer.
-- Eric